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二次大戰(有目錄XD)

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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-2 20:26:05 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 古都 at 2005-8-2 08:24 PM:

中文點譯?

唔知

個人資料如下:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Scherer
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發表於 2005-8-2 21:08:21 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 銀公主 at 2005-8-2 08:04 PM:


都係無講到佢點頂希特勒..


其實都唔算頂......

By 16 December the Soivet counteroffensive at Moscow had forced Army Group Centre commander Bock to make a similar request for authority to withdraw and adjust position as necessary.. Later that night, Brauchitsch, the German Army commander, and Halder explained the situation to Hitler, who insisted that a general withdrawal was out of question. On 18 December Bock surrendered his command to Kluge, ostensibly because of genuine ill health.

Glantz, David M.
Before Stalingrad: Barbarossa - Hitler's Invasion of Russia 1941 (2003) p.190

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obi ... 202-3039404-5441467
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發表於 2005-8-2 21:19:28 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 古都 at 2005-8-2 07:58 PM:
不過講到頂撞希特拉


最出名係呢單

The Germans still held the city but Soviet inroads had been made. Grossdeutschland held the west, Das Reich the north, a reinforced Panzergrenadier regiment of Leibstandarte held the east and the 320th Division holding the southeast.

Hitler had ordered that Kharkov is to be held. (Paul) Hausser, commander of SS-Panzerkorps feared the troops in Kharkov would be cut off, he contacted Lanz’s HQ to ask to evacuate on the afternoon of 14 February, after he heard no reply he ordered the evacuation himself at 1645 hours. Lanz contacted Hausser at 1725 and reiterated the Führers orders to hold the city, he repeated the orders on the telephone again at 1800. Hausser changed his mine and vowed to hold the city to the last man.

On the Morning of 15 February the Soviets launched their final assault on Kharkov. Units flooded into the city, and by midday the southwest corridor out of Kharkov had shrunk down to a mile or so wide. Despite Hitler’s directive and Lanz’s orders element of the SS-Panzerkorps started to vacate the city, the first to withdraw were Das Reich from the northern suburbs. The Soviet 69th Army soon filled the void. SS Panzergrenadiers were soon engaged in heavy street fighting in the east of city, engaging the 15th Tank Corps and the 160th Rifle Division. Hausser not wishing to lose his troops ordered the withdrawal of the Divisions from Kharkov at 1300 hours before the corridor could close. The Soviets continued to advance into Kharkov on 16 February and by noon they were back in complete control of their city.

The Germans had lost Kharkov for the first time, but not the last. Despite the fact that Hausser had disobeyed orders and Hitler’s wishes he held his position as commander of the SS-Panzerkorps, but a scapegoat was found. Lanz lost his command to General der Panzertruppen Werner Kempf.

http://www.battlefront.co.nz/article.asp?articleid=263

The instance infuriated Hitler who refused to award Hausser after the battle. After this withdrawal, the II SS Panzer Korps (now reinforced with the Totenkopf division) was attached to Manstein's counter-thrust, which destroyed the Soviet spearheads and saved Army Group South. The SS completed this victory when the Leibstandarte retook Kharkov, for which Hitler renamed the central square "Leibstandarteplatze" in honour of the victory. The battle is often regarded as the last successful German offensive in the USSR and is still studied in military academies as a text-book example of mobile defence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov

[ Last edited by 橙色力量 on 2-8-2005 at 09:22 PM ]
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發表於 2005-8-2 22:34:13 | 顯示全部樓層
即係黨衛軍就可以違令
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發表於 2005-8-2 22:39:44 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 食脾細路 at 2005-8-2 20:21:

好難話ge喎

不過俄國一流將領又真係唔多又真

多謝stalin啦
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-2 22:46:42 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 銀公主 at 2005-8-2 10:34 PM:
即係黨衛軍就可以違令

不錯
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-2 22:47:58 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 歐石南 at 2005-8-2 10:39 PM:

多謝stalin啦

鐵木辛哥同朱可夫可以話係萬中無一
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發表於 2005-8-2 23:59:55 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 食脾細路 at 2005-8-2 10:47 PM:

鐵木辛哥同朱可夫可以話係萬中無一


淨係識朱可夫
係咪因為蘇聯人淨係識階級鬥爭??
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-3 02:10:24 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by hehe0114 at 2005-8-2 11:59 PM:
係咪因為蘇聯人淨係識階級鬥爭??

當然唔係
而且早期佢地真係有唔少好ge將領
不過係巴巴羅薩早期,斯大林下左一命令:所有係前線打敗仗的最高級指揮都要拉出去打杷
而戰時初年因為俄國軍事革新只去到40%左右
令到佢地根本無力對抗快速的德軍,所以...
而一切都係要到突擊天才科涅夫(Konev)比朱可夫從史大林手中救出先有少少好轉

PS:仲有斯大林30年未的大清洗,不少一流的俄國將領也死於此

[ Last edited by 食脾細路 on 3-8-2005 at 02:26 AM ]
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發表於 2005-8-3 02:24:45 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 食脾細路 at 2005-8-3 02:10 AM:

當然唔係
而且早期佢地真係有唔少好ge將領
不過係巴巴羅薩早期,斯大林下左一命令:所有係前線打敗仗的最高級指揮都要拉出去打杷
而戰時初年因為俄國軍事革新只去到40%左右
令到佢地根本無力對抗快速 ...


有補充
仲有因為有新既坦克
同埋寒冬令到德國既高度機動部隊失去戰力
事實上,德軍輕敵,並打算/計劃可以係冬天前解決ussr
因此並冇足夠裝備,包括冬天既行軍用品

有錯請指正
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發表於 2005-8-3 02:34:39 | 顯示全部樓層
俄軍先係人海戰既表表者
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-3 02:50:32 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by hehe0114 at 2005-8-3 02:24 AM:


有補充
仲有因為有新既坦克
同力
事實上,德軍輕敵,並打算/計劃可以係冬天前解決ussr
因此並冇足夠裝備,包括冬天既行軍用品

有錯請指正

其實係東後期,大多數ge戰事已經係變左做街頭戰事
機動部隊已經無咩野做
德軍其實唔係想冬天前ko俄國,只係希望斯大林格勒可以攻下,令德軍可以包圍莫斯科
而德軍無足夠裝備...呢方便說不定是戈林的錯
曼斯坦果時差d成功令希特拉可以比德軍有休息ge機會,但戈林就拍心口話各軍物資一定可以送到
當然,當年第6集團ge事足已話比我地知戈林係點搞(雖然佢都有佢ge難堪...)
好多人話德軍輕敵,其實如果睇下巴巴羅薩時三大集團ge兵力,我地足而睇到德軍絕無輕敵
冬裝其實德軍有,但係食物同子彈就嚴重不足了

PS:如果Tukhachevsky,Blyukher,葉戈羅夫呢d將才係38-39 ge比斯大林無啦啦殺左
俄國初期可能會好d的
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-3 02:51:52 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 米高奧雲 at 2005-8-3 02:34 AM:
俄軍先係人海戰既表表者

俄國水兵太多
真正訓練有數的士兵可能連德軍三分二都無
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發表於 2005-8-3 03:08:15 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 食脾細路 at 2005-8-3 02:50:

其實係東後期,大多數ge戰事已經係變左做街頭戰事
機動部隊已經無咩野做
德軍其實唔係想冬天前ko俄國,只係希望斯大林格勒可以攻下,令德軍可以包圍莫斯科
而德軍無足夠裝備...呢方便說不定是戈林的錯:icon10 ...

玩咩
打仗就機動化
後勤就動物化
唔死就奇
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發表於 2005-8-3 03:17:22 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 食脾細路 at 2005-8-3 02:50 AM:

其實係東後期,大多數ge戰事已經係變左做街頭戰事
機動部隊已經無咩野做
德軍其實唔係想冬天前ko俄國,只係希望斯大林格勒可以攻下,令德軍可以包圍莫斯科
而德軍無足夠裝備...呢方便說不定是戈林的錯:icon10 ...


有d唔同意,德軍以機動同行軍快速作為其主意成功原因
係當時兩邊戰線黎睇,對ussr一定要速戰速決,
否則就如歷史般陷入進退不得既景地,
而戰事拖得愈耐,對德國一定冇好處
睇書講,德軍連多兩對襪同衫都冇,凝固左既汽油對埋寒冷天氣對機械化既德軍作戰構成嚴重既打擊
戰略上黎講,史大林格勒並非太重要,旨在佔領所謂叫「史大林」既地方
反而佔領基輔、莫斯科此等咁重要既野放左係後面
唔好忘記,包圍、消耗戰對德國並沒好處,而包圍史大林格勒正係
以己之短攻彼之長
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發表於 2005-8-3 03:56:08 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by hehe0114 at 2005-8-3 03:17:


有d唔同意,德軍以機動同行軍快速作為其主意成功原因
係當時兩邊戰線黎睇,對ussr一定要速戰速決,
否則就如歷史般陷入進退不得既景地,
而戰事拖得愈耐,對德國一定冇好處
睇書講,德軍連多兩對襪同衫都 ...

唔係佢唔想快
係佢動物化既後勤跟不上
唔停唔得

史大林格勒
其實係for進入高卡索地區搶石油同糧倉

基輔好似玩完好耐
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發表於 2005-8-3 09:44:02 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 歐石南 at 2005-8-3 03:56 AM:

唔係佢唔想快
係佢動物化既後勤跟不上
唔停唔得

史大林格勒
其實係for進入高卡索地區搶石油同糧倉

基輔好似玩完好耐


雖然從來未攻下,不過希特勒唔理,照入高加索
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-3 12:40:34 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 歐石南 at 2005-8-3 03:08 AM:

玩咩
打仗就機動化
後勤就動物化
唔死就奇

羅馬尼亞騎兵隊話佢地搞得點啊呀
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 樓主| 發表於 2005-8-3 13:02:44 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by hehe0114 at 2005-8-3 03:17 AM:
睇書講,德軍連多兩對襪同衫都冇,凝固左既汽油對埋寒冷天氣對機械化既德軍

戰略上黎講,史大林格勒並非太重要,旨在佔領所謂叫「史大林」既地方

唔好忘記,包圍、消耗戰對德國並沒好處,而包圍史大林格勒正係

呢個係後期ge事,藍色計劃中希特拉早已經計劃又"夏季"同"春季"攻勢
可想而知德國早已經打算過冬
而係斯大林格勒及其後作戰中,因為俄國做出來ge特殊作戰環境,機械化其實已經唔係好用得上

希特拉當時好擔心石油問題,而攻佔高加索不單單可以解決問題,而且可以ko蘇聯個好多後勤
因為高加索有石油,有玉米,有小麥同有馬
而要攻佔高加索,斯大林格勒就一定要打,唔係點解當年大家可以打得咁精彩(當然都為口氣)

史大林格勒唔係包圍戰
係Paulus三次總攻擊後第六集團已經無左任何進攻力,但當時Paulus已攻佔約90%的史大林格勒
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發表於 2005-8-3 13:03:47 | 顯示全部樓層
Originally posted by 食脾細路 at 2005-8-3 12:40:

羅馬尼亞騎兵隊話佢地搞得點啊呀

家下咩年代
孔明北伐都用木牛流馬
佢竟然反樸歸真
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